May 13 2007
4 Former Embryos & 1 Recent Zygote
Visit www.lauraingraham.com to get “Former Embryo” shirts!
http://conservablogs.com/conservativecommonman/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/4-former-embryos-1-recent-zygote-4.JPG
http://conservablogs.com/conservativecommonman/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/4-former-embryos-1-recent-zygote-3.JPG
Not to be rude but..
http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/4232/stilluy1.jpg
I suppose I am pro-life in that I HATE abortion. However, I think it’s worth saving the life of the mother, and that an abortion is not immoral if the child will die anyway or lead a several crippled life (not something light like down syndrome- I mean -severe-)
On a totally different note, you really make me wonder.
First, note all of these things:
-I am Christian. Don’t question that. To question that, or to the degree to which I live a faithful life is to sin yourself. You have no place to judge me based on religion.
-I am a moderate. I am neither Republican nor Democrat.
-I have very balanced views on everything politically. I do not take simple sides.
You refer to abortion clinics with only the foulest of rhetoric. You look down upon liberals.
As Christians, it is our purpose in life to worship the Lord and look to Him for guidance. Realize that we are weak beings with weak judgment. We succumb to temptation. All of us. Not some. All.
As such, what gives you any right to condemn another group of people for an only slightly altered perception of morality of your own? Shouldn’t, by understand your own weak judgements, you be able to realize that maybe, JUST MAYBE, you’re wrong? This the problem with conservatives. You’re too stuck in place and your own views (not that changing your views is what I request,) but the fact that all too often you both condemn others and fail to look at things rationally.
Did you ever stop and think that maybe people who are pro-choice have some points? You make this an emotional thing rather than a rational. What if the mother was going to die? What if the child was to die only a few months after birth and the mother would never breathe unassisted again? Would you still resist abortion?
One curious argument I’ve heard on that case is, “You can never be sure that would happen. No matter how sure science will get, it’s just science. God can always intervene.” Again, I am Christian. I think that quote is full of hypocrisy. We all trust science daily. When was the last time you saw God DIRECTLY intervene in anyone’s life? You haven’t. Any modern miracle of God has followed natural laws of some kind. (IE., we understand that physics happens and works. You’ll never see a boulder floating in the water without some good reason, such as its composition being primarily a porous lava rock of some kind,e etc. ) We understand these laws and God certainly could give probability a push, but if we know something with certainty, such as a fetus without a heart, we can’t pick and choose the science we accept and deny.
This is not an attack on you. I’m merely curious in your views.
Tony,
If a child is without a heart I don’t believe he or she will continue to grow in the womb. I believe this would result in a miscarriage (I am not a medical professional, this is a guess.) My wife and I also lost a child to miscarriage and were extremely saddened. No matter what conditions our child may have been born with, we loved him or her (and still do.)
What are the odds that a mother needs to have her baby killed in order to survive? My wife’s position is clear on this subject. She would never want a child of hers to die in order to save her life. We see a baby as innocent, someone to be protected with every effort.
The question I have for you is, would you play God? Would you decide which innocent baby is worthy of continuing in life and which is not?
Tony -
Thanks for stopping by Sam’s place and commenting. Most of us write our piece and pray for someone like yourself to come by and respond.
If I may I’d like to address a couple of things you have said. I speak for myself, just another reader here at Sam’s place. I don’t claim to speak for Sam or anyone other than me.
I don’t know what your faith is so I take it on your word that you are a Christian. However, should you begin to exhibit non-Christian behavior, I might begin to wonder. That is not sin or judgment, it is merely what we all do every day - evaluation of the evidence before our eyes to help us draw conclusions.
Most of the Conservatives I know are also Christians. As such, apart from the sin and failings you so correctly reference, they are uniformly self-examining people. They are constantly evaluating their views and opinions, not to be able to dogmatically present them more forcefully, but to ensure they are in line with the views and opinions of their Master.
The godless don’t need to do this since by definition they are the rulers of their own destiny. They answer only to themselves. Christians on the other hand, have an Authority outside themselves and are constantly checking with it to make sure they are in compliance. Thus, far from being stuck in place and rigid in our views, we are far more flexible and willing to change our views. It needs to be said, however, that change needs to come from the Spirit of God and not another man who is his own god and disagrees with my God.
I have to say, this is the first time I’ve ever heard the pro-abortion argument labeled as rational. I happen to be of the opinion that if the doctor could guarantee me that either my wife or my child would die and the choice was mine to save one or the other, I would opt for my wife. For what I consider rational and godly reasons. Namely, my wife is already here and has a role in my life, the lives of our other children and so on. I know some disagree and I’m comfortable with that. Rape, incest and all the other arguments about defects and such seem selfish and emotional. If I know my wife is seriously and terminally ill I could not justify killing her now just because I know she’ll die soon. How then could I abort a child even though I know he may not live long or well?
Regarding your appeal to science, I don’t think anyone here would be in favor of disregarding a Doctor’s advice for a needed surgery or such. Abortion does not constitute such advice. To say that the doctor’s best evaluation is that the child will be born deformed or handicapped is just that - the doctor’s best evaluation. Have doctor’s never been wrong in a diagnosis?
As for seeing God work directly in people’s lives - it happens daily and I see it as often. You say you are a Christian. Did you simply get hit by a random ray of Godliness while walking down the street one day or did God directly intervene in your life?
I know you were referring to more of the miraculous but so am I. Is there anything more miraculous than being born again? Remember the man lowered through the roof by his friends? Jesus forgave his sins and THAT was the scandal. Jesus asked which is harder - to forgive sins or heal? His audience believed it was harder to forgive sins than to heal. We seem to believe the other way around or that both are equally difficult.
the truth of the matter is that God’s character has never changed. He was a Healer in Exodus 20 and He’s still a Healer. I’ve seen numerous instances of God directly intervening in a person’s physical life via the miraculous.
As far as the miraculous and natural law, perhaps you should revisit some of your bible stories. God caused an iron axe head to float. God brought water from a rock. God caused a bush to burn but not be consumed. The Nile turned to blood. The dead were raised. Missing and withered body parts were restored. And not just in Bible times but in the here and now.
God is not mad at us, He is madly in love with us. He teaches and leads us in the ways He does because He knows they are best for US, not for Him. For me to come along and echo His thoughts and His opinions is not narrow minded or bigoted or anything other than repeating what God has said.
You mentioned that some things are only slightly different from where I am so why am I opposed to such a small difference. Well, carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide are only slightly different but they are not equally good for me for their slight difference.
I’m reminded of the father who had his kids tell him rap music was not too bad since it only had a few bad words and a few bad themes, what was the problem with just a little bit of bad? The father responded he’d answer them the next day.
When the kids got home they smelled the wonderful smell of fresh baked brownies in the kitchen. Dad said he had baked the brownies for the kids by way of answering their question the night before. The brownies were theirs to eat - as much as they wanted. But the dad added that as a special ingredient, he’d gone out into the yard and picked up just a little bit of dog poop and stirred it into the brownie mix. When the kids objected they didn’t want the brownies, the dad responded, why not, it was only a little bit of poop, and a little bit wasn’t all that bad, after all. The kids got the message and I trust you will too.
Thus I, too, refer to abortion clinics with only the foulest of rhetoric. There is no possible justification of abortion. The men and women who work in that industry will have to answer to God for their actions and their defenders will have to do the same.
That having been said, I have to answer for my actions as well. I’m comfortable with the concept of answering to an Authority since I’ve done it all my Christian life. The biggest reason I tend to think poorly of Liberals is that they want me to answer to them but they want to answer to no one. They are uncomfortable with answering to Authority.
For me, that pretty much says it all.
I’d be curious on your views on this as well.
Blessings,
Blue Collar Muse
I’m glad you have responded to my admittedly too-much response with so much tact. Thank you.
The issue of playing God is one that gives me some issues of my own. Personally, I am a Calvinist with a hint of Deist in me, (I’ll explain another time) but I’ve also taken a great interest in the Enlightenment Philosophes.
As man, we, by all means, rule the world in which we live. God has essentially, through free will, given up the charge to rule our own lives. We manipulate our own lives, our social bonds, our environment, other lives (socially, through words, actions, etc.) and as such, we are playing God all the time, are we not? Everything we do has an effect on someone else.
For me, the idea of calling abortion, “playing God,” seems a little weird to me given how much we rule our own physical world. It’s, in my eyes, a bit like picking and choosing things for rhetorical motives and then applying a thin layer of moral perception to it.
I definitely agree with your wife’s position on sacrifice in abortion. The argument I described was one I had heard from a friend and have consistently heard repeated.
After many years of being jade by the organized church (and equally party-politics,) my views on religion have drifted but not solidified. The beliefs I will share are my contemplations rather than firm beliefs. I have been raised Presbyterian and I definitely feel that predestination comes in somewhere. I believe in the sacrament of communion as a symbolic act as opposed to either trans- or consubstantiation. I believe that the Bible is, by all means, not to be taken literally. I, for the most part, accept evolution.
Evolution and God’s place in the world:
I feel that God planned the world to be through natural laws. We see that gravity happens. By the existence of this force, the natural conclusion of God’s planning and initiation of the universe is.. US! How can this possibly be random, though? I don’t feel it can. I think everything that we are is a result of God’s plan playing out rather than active involvement. God’s involvement through the Bible, however, I believe (beyond the creation story which I still have mixed feelings on.) We obviously have free will but God, being omniscient, has to know how things will play out. I don’t think this is to us to decipher.
In suit with these beliefs, I feel our place on Earth is a bit more secular than most Christians. It is our duty to do God’s will but I don’t feel that we necessary get to make our own interpretations of God’s will. In this, we must do our own vision of God’s will as the Bible explains it but not try and force those same opinions as forcefully on others as we may be tempted to. (This was all just if you were curious about me.)
Politically I feel similarly. We should believe in the things we believe in. They should always be checked equally by logic (as God gave us a rational world) as well as emotion and religion. I disagree with blaming things even on the conservatives or the liberals or specific parties. Overall, I’d be much happier if politics had no emotion and no religion but rather existed by the philosophy of Holbach.
(Cutting it here as it’s late and I’m tired.)
Love the pictures!
Thank you for your intelligent and outspoken support of life.